Let's back up a moment.  Are you saying that games need to come up with a better endgame?  Or are you saying that they need to scrap the notion of an endgame entirely and not have one at all?

Originally posted by Zlayer77

I think you missed my point.. You attack me with things I never said...

Try thinking outside the BOX for a little while.. Why must MMOS be about Gear and Leveling?? why must the progression be vertical going from bottom 2 top?

Why not design a game that caters to alot of diffrent play styles?

English is not my first languges but Im going to try and explain... MARTIN, ALEXANDER AND JONAS all want to play this new MMO that have come out...

MARTIN decide he is going to Craft weapons and armour and have himself a blacksmith in the largest TOWN in the game world.. He trains himself in all the skills he needs 2 do this.. he sets up his shop calling it the "THE SHARP SWORD" by the help of the game designers he has hundread of diffrent designes he can do on his weapons ( he can combine to get the look he wants all of his weapons to have) He also decided to specialize in Steel armour and weapons.. but he also learns how to craft Dragon armour... His play time will Revolve around getting maths for his weapons and selling them to other players...

Alexander wants to be a warrior and go out and kill the dragons of the land.. He trains in swords and armour.. and to ride his War horse.. he quests across the land slaying monster after monster... He likes Martins designs and often comes by his shop to repair and replace his gear... after getting to talking one day, Martin mentions he can even make dragon armour.. If he would get his hands on some... Alexander tells him that him and his friends are going out this weekend to slay the famed dragon of the Black hills, and that all of them would not mind if Martin came along and skined it after they were done.. Making them all new fancy dragon armour. Martin jumps on this Idea because he really want his personaly designed dragon armour to be shown across the land..

JONAS has decide to be a merchant.. He often visits Martins shop to buy up goods for his journey accross the land ( it taks a long time to move around) and Martins designes sell very well in other parts of the game world were good crafters are hard to find. He also owns a silver mine that he has bought and manges.. When Martin looks at the maths to make Dragon armour he sees that he needs silver to compleat it.. He Ofc contacts his good friend JONAS who is more then happy to sell him some, with the promise that if there are any pices over after Alexander and his friends have had their armours made he can by them off him... Because he knows that  in "FAR PORT" a city across the sea.. there are no dragon armour for sale and he would make a shitload of money selling it there...

What I have just described is sorta the way EvE works... but its about space ships and stuff.. this is a way to make a game diffrent... but hey what do I know.. most of you are probably happy just sitting in the Kue for the next raid and BG...

You're getting attacked because instead of discussing you are sort of just trying to force your opinion on people.  If you enjoy Eve, play it.  No one's asking you to play a game where you sit in a "queue."

MMOs are designed to appeal to a wide audience. You do not see this.   Let's take SWTOR.

Let's say you want to play Star Fox 64, well SWTOR has that.  It's a casual mini-game.

Let's say you want to play a single-player story, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to own your friends in PvP combat, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to group with a few friends and do a dungeon together, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to group with a large group of friends to do a dungeon together, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to trade and make money, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to roman the world collecting animal samples, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want min max the gear of yourself and your companions, SWTOR has that.

By listing all of these things it doesn't make my opinion anymore valid.  Nor does your example.  If you want to play a game like that there are tones of them out there.  If you want to try and make one better, you are free to go ahead and do so.  Farmville is easily a top 3 popular MMO in the world and it was designed by one man.

You are upset that a lot of MMOs do not appeal to you and are crying on a public forum feeling you have all of the answers for developers.  In truth your lack of industry experience makes you the least likely person anyone would listen to in regards to this.

I dont know if its me but it didnt take me anywhere near 5 days to max out the level in SWTOR. In fact, after a month I was at lvl44 and that was done with the help of  other peopletoo... but then again, I started playing PVP and levelling up faster pretty late in the game (after lvl30) so maybe that's why....

I dont know why people rush anyways. If there is no endgame waiting for them, is there really a point? Doesnt that make every MMO out there completely useless after the initial month?

Originally posted by GTwander

*rubs migrane*

Everything is F2P because of competition, not poor design choice. Nobody is willing to pay for a sub anymore with all the games out there bending over backwards to even get them to try one out.

Nothing has changed in the market, whatsoever, beyond how many new product entries pop up every year, further eating from the giant pie that everyone has to share. Oversaturation, not some horsecrap about "them not getting it right".

You just have too many damned choices... and this thread literally makes me want to smash something IRL with how off-the-mark it is...

In a competative market you need to stand out.. or do you honestly think you can push the same product as the next guy? If you do you have to lower the price? right ? so people buy the stuff from you instead of him..

That is whats happening here.. Everyone basically have the same product. If we look at the design of say WoW. Warhammer, AOC, Rifts and SWTOR.. To me its the same game. Diffrent grafics, a few diffrent fetures but in the end mostly the same game..

EvE on the other hand or Linage2 for that mather have little in common with the above. Harsh death penelties, no raids, no BGs, a hughe focus on player vs player content. In EvE you hold space, craft and pvp even on the market against other players. In linage2 you held teretories, castles and had guild wars with people who tried to take what you had.

The secreat world is also trying to be diffrent, we will see what happens but I still think they focus way to much on Group orientated Pve content..

I still think you can find other ways of making massive multiplayer games that differentiates itself from the rest. You might think Im whining and complaining but I truly belive that there is so much more you could offer a player base then what the current MMO games are doing( this Includes EvE online, its close 2 perfection but it can still do with a few more tweaks.. making it a bit more theamparky for one)

So there you have it... I guess you will not agree with me.. but hey whos to say you wont someday come around..

My followup post on the other page can easily address all that as well...

Originally posted by troublmaker

Originally posted by Zlayer77

I think you missed my point.. You attack me with things I never said...

You're getting attacked because instead of discussing you are sort of just trying to force your opinion on people.  If you enjoy Eve, play it.  No one's asking you to play a game where you sit in a "queue."

MMOs are designed to appeal to a wide audience. You do not see this.   Let's take SWTOR.

Let's say you want to play Star Fox 64, well SWTOR has that.  It's a casual mini-game.

I owned StarFOX dont feel like spending cash on something I played over a decade ago hehe

Let's say you want to play a single-player story, SWTOR has that.

Problem is I have allrady played alot of games that offerd me the same, its not new

Let's say you want to own your friends in PvP combat, SWTOR has that.

I have done this before also, do not make me feel hungry for doing it again in another setting

Let's say you want to group with a few friends and do a dungeon together, SWTOR has that.

done that in a dussin MMOS.. I know exacly what to expect.. nothing new

Let's say you want to group with a large group of friends to do a dungeon together, SWTOR has that.

Hmm Iv raided before, many times I personaly dont feel I need to spend the money on SWTOR to do it again

Let's say you want to trade and make money, SWTOR has that.

Making money of the AH/market yes who hasent done that before lol

Let's say you want to roman the world collecting animal samples, SWTOR has that.

Yes we have all done this and we know the mechanic is the same in SWTOR

Let's say you want min max the gear of yourself and your companions, SWTOR has that.

Nothing new under the sun here you could equip your companions with gear over a decade ago in single player RPGS

By listing all of these things it doesn't make my opinion anymore valid.  Nor does your example.  If you want to play a game like that there are tones of them out there.  If you want to try and make one better, you are free to go ahead and do so.  Farmville is easily a top 3 popular MMO in the world and it was designed by one man.

You are upset that a lot of MMOs do not appeal to you and are crying on a public forum feeling you have all of the answers for developers.  In truth your lack of industry experience makes you the least likely person anyone would listen to in regards to this.

Facts are SWTOR is not for me, as I Have played over a dussin games that play mostly like it... it wont feel new or fresh for me. And with all the tanking Clones I can do all this for free if I want to, dont have to spend one single penny to experince the stuff you mentioned. But my post was not about what game would suite me it was about Stagnated game design that leads to more free to play games... I will play SWTOR also when its free to play in a year or 2. Just to try it out.. wont pay for it though as it has nothing I'm really intersted in spending my money on

Still off the mark my friend. If all these games that you claim are aimed at a bigger audiance were doing great. I would not have made my post. But the Fact that games like AOC and Warhammer and many more have failed to live up to expectations should tell us all something. Maybe and Im saying maybe here an outdated design philospahy has something do do with it?

For example If Warhammer online or Age of Conan had launched in 2004 instead of WoW.. I would not be surprised if they would have had 1m pluss subscribers today. There is a reason why games that follow the same Design keep tanking. And it dosent have to do with bugs and missing endgame content.

I mean if you compare Warhammer or AOC with games of the early 2000-2004 era and you will see that they blow most of them out of the water. But in 2008 when the both launched Nobody was really interested in them. Why? people blame bugs and other things but I say it comes down 2 Repetativeness. If you have taken the ride on the rollercoster 100 times you know what to expect.. nothing new so you move on..

Point being I think most of the player base have moved on but the Industry havent cought on jet.. they keep pushing out the same type of game hoping subscribers will flock to their product. I say the only chans to get people to play is if they Change things up and make something we havent seen before... and it dosent have to be a sandbx.. it just has to be diffrent..

Originally posted by troublmaker

MMOs are designed to appeal to a wide audience. You do not see this.   Let's take SWTOR.

Let's say you want to play Star Fox 64, well SWTOR has that.  It's a casual mini-game.

Let's say you want to play a single-player story, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to own your friends in PvP combat, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to group with a few friends and do a dungeon together, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to group with a large group of friends to do a dungeon together, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to trade and make money, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want to roman the world collecting animal samples, SWTOR has that.

Let's say you want min max the gear of yourself and your companions, SWTOR has that.

But I don't want a game that does a bunch of things poorly.  I want a game that does something interesting, and does it well.  Ideally a game should do a number of things well.  But a long list of checklist features without making any of them good does not make for a good game.

Can you say with a straight face that SWTOR is the best game on the market for any of those?  That it's significantly above average at any of them?