I prefer sandbox clearly.

I wait anxious for the exit of "arche age" and believe that it will make change many people of opinion

Originally posted by wormywyrm

Originally posted by Bhazir

Originally posted by Gylfi

 

i doubt mixing is possible. Elements from one type will steal content from the other one.

For example if there's quests then you don't need to explore, cause they tell you where to go, quests also give you money and weapon, so you don't need to craft and trade. Quests also tell you about lore and the history of the place, so you don't need to perouse, i dunno, books in libraries, or search for clues around the gameworld. And so on they take freedom away from you and the -you're the artifex of your own history- feel just vanishes.

Unless at the beginning of the game you can choose what "version" you want to play, the one with a story you have to follow or the one where you're on your own, i doubt the two things go well together.

Sorry, but I disagree with this.

Yes quests can point you to the next town or area appropiate for your level, but still don't cover the whole gaming world. Quests could even be used for incentive to explore, put some questgivers in far away corners that are far away from travelroutes. Couple this with the lore and also add books next to it and you get even more reason to explore for those that are loremonkeys.

The rewards don't always have to be equipement, but just some money. This doesn't take anything away from crafting and would even help the economy as those people that like to run quests/missions can get funds that way to spend on the market to get their equipement that is crafted by other players.

A well crafted questsystem could be implemented in sandbox games to help it grow and make it easier for starters to get into the game without taking away the freedom a sandbox gives you. It would just be another tool provided by the developers.

I agree with Gylfl that sandbox and themepark are (mostly) exclusive of each other.

True quests do not have to push players to the far reaches of the world, but they give incentive to not explore, because why explore when you could be achieving more in the game by doing quests given at the local hub?  By giving better rewards in the 'hidden' quests?  No, because if there are quest givers out in the middle of nowhere, even if 'hidden', players will quickly compose where these quests are using the internet.  They will probably just be annoyed by the extra walk to the hidden 'better' quests.

In the end you have to make the decision:  What will give better rewards, quests/looting or crafting?  The compromise solution is that you must quest/loot to get pieces that can then be crafted together with mined resources in order to make the best gear.  But this is arguably what sandboxes (should) do anyways.  For example, SWG's famous bounty hunter jet pack.  A VERY expensive item that required highest class resources, master expertise in armorsmithing, and some very rare loot pieces.

 

The presence or absence of quests is not a defining feature in sandboxes.  A sandbox can have just as many quests as WoW does.  A quest also does not limit your ability to explore.  People explored because they wanted to, thats it.

Being a sandbox game is not an excuse for content light games, or a reason for developers to not have to make content. Sandbox isn't an excuse to not have questing, boss raids, or events. These are all GAMEPLAY FEATURES THAT KEEP PEOPLE ENGROSSED AND ENTERTAINED! - reposted from another poster

Venge

Anyone interested in Glitch ?

I have been playing this game for couple of days and i'm addicted to it

Sandbox = old skool Legos

Themepark = Modern Legos.

/end of discussion

Originally posted by DLangley

In an effort to consolidate the numerous discussion threads on this topic, please use this thread to compare and contrast these two MMORPG models. In the future, any thread created in the Pub outside of this one will be locked and redirected here. As with any other thread, all of the forum rules apply here :).

 Remember to stay on topic.

Thanks.

Why does MMORPG.COM constantly try to reduce , discourage and kill forum corespondency ?

-They allready ban people almost randomly ( I was banned for writting WOWTOR , as a joke in one post )

-They redirect every post that even mentions paticular game , or looking for game to its quiet hard to find sub forum (So its really hard to find if you are not specifically looking for discussion on that single game)

While on other side sites like REDDIT , thrive ( I mean make lot of money ) on having one big PUB area for all game discussions , and letting people freedom of speach.

I am really puzzled for quite some time regarding buisness decisions from this site.

- Fresh News, they have not (massivelly does)

- Interviews and insider info , they have least (massivelly has most)

- Game guides , videos and tips , they have not (TTH and MMH has)

Only thing going for them (and what made them) is the forum.

But they are constantly trying to kill it !

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Meh. This whole 'my favorite themepark MMO has all the features that sandbox MMO's have' is kind of a silly argument.

Nice argument for baiting though

Although it also maybe shows a lack of experience/knowledge of MMO's and gameplay in them, or maybe a refusal to acknowledge different types of MMO's and gameplay styles.

Because looking at this thread and others like it, all the arguments that pointed towards the differences have been mentioned. If people still can't acknowledge the differences between games like UO, SWG and EVE and games like WoW or Rift, then it's obviously because people don't want  to see the differences, or lack experience with all those MMO's.

QFT right there.  QFT

Originally posted by Dredphyre

Sandbox = old skool Legos

Themepark = Modern Legos.

 

/end of discussion

I didn't realize you did stand up.  You coming to the Phoenix area soon? 

I haven't played a well-done sandbox MMO so it's either a) I don't like sandbox games or b) most of them are indie and lack content or are not what people think them to be.

I have only enjoyed "themepark" MMOs so I am definitely feeling very sceptical about sandbox MMOs. The latest MMO I am playing is EQ2 and it's great and it's themepark. So all hail themepark MMOs.

Being 'sceptical' about games is a bit of a weird statement.  As you say, you will either enjoy sandbox games or you dont.      There are sandboxes out there that people enjoy so its the former.  People with open minds and willing to try different things tend to do just that :)

edit agree there are not many good mmo sandbox out there, but it is possible, and thats partially what this post is about, many people have not tasted a good mmo sandbox, but if they did, then they would understand why themeparks have become so sterile.

Heres a better analogy:

Sandbox = A big fat box of technic lego, thousands of parts.  The fun is using your imagination to design and build your own models.

Themepark = Build a hero lego set.  You know the one, you can build 3-4 models with lots of specially molded parts.  

I am going to go ahead and say, more hardcore RPG gamers enjoy sandboxes. The reason I say this is because sandbox allows you to create your character exactly how you want them. While Themeparks limit you choices greatly.

A Sandbox allows you to create your own past, present, and future; while a themepark has it set for you.

A Sandbox is for those who are willing to take the extra time. A Themepark is for those who want to achieve a high status more quickly.

A Sandbox makes acomplishments feel that much more better, while a themepark, you know while you just gained a skill, 100 others gained the same skill 10 minutes ago, 5 minutes ago, and just now. In about 1 months time, nearly everyone will have the skill.

A Sandbox is for those who enjoy an ever changing world. A themepark is for those who only like changes made by the developer.

I for one want a virtual game like in the .hack series, which is a sandbox.

IMO, sandboxes are the future of MMORPG's. People think sandboxes mean more realistic, which is actually incorrect. It's just more advanced and more customizable. What you do may actually have an effect in the game. It gives one the sense of importance in the world, while themeparks just can't offer that.

Choosing the shape of a sword would be a neat feature to have in crafting. However, it should have it's limits. I mean a broad sword would not a be a broad sword if it was shaped like a long sword lol. I do agree though with the idea.

As for getting better as you use a certain weapon, I know a few games that have that feature already. However, the effect of getting better does not happen till you reach the ammount of training you need, and then using ability/skill points to rank it up. Mabinogi has this feature, as well as an alpha called planeshift.

Mabinogi also has housing, but there is not much customizations to it. It's more used for a 24/7 store to sell your goods.

With that said, mabinogi is probably the best "almost sandbox" free to play game I have played.

BTW, if anyone wants the mmorpg industry to turn around, the best way to do it would be by actually getting involved. I been trying to get a game into development fr a long time, but no one ever wants to take initiative to even help. If i could get a group together, I think we could make an mmorpg that makes other mmorpgs seem like kids toys.

I am a big fan of Sandbox MMOs compared to themepark. I think Sandbox has a lot more room for creative ideas and for new games and since the investment is after low-hanging fruits, then themepark MMOs are easier sell to Angels and VCs. On the other hand, there are plenty of room left for future Sandbox MMOs and creative developers to go after. 

I'm wondering if one could make the distinction between sandboxes and themeparks by necessity of social interaction.  One of the reasons I loved UO and really don't like WoW-style games is that it was a truly online game--where interacting with other players was the central part of gameplay.  With WoW style games, being in a guild or interacting with other players is totally optional.  

Next to having the freedom and ability to be creative in sandbox MMOs, trying new things out all the time, I miss the community and player interaction.  Themeparks never really hold me because it feels like the MMO is tied to a game where players have the option of being social or anti-social, playing through quests and not talking to anyone--as if it were a hybrid between a single-player game and a game with a large lobby with some multiplayer features tied in.

No doubt theme-park style MMOs can be commercially successful because they cater to casual gamers and soccer moms who don't like FFA PVP.  But how to make a sandbox MMO that could be commercially successful post-WOW would be another thread.  Of course, its only part game-design;  more than half the battle is marketing/business strategy.

If there are any good MMOs where there is heavy player interaction (rich social environment), please let me know. That is what I'm looking to play right now.  Dissapointed with SWTOR as again, there is no need for other players to talk with me at all.

I have played SWG, WoW, Rift and did the beta test for SWTOR.  Besides SWG, all the other games felt identical.  Run to the splooge on your map, click the shiny thing, run back.  BORING.  SWG was my first MMO and I didn't get to really indulge in it like I would want to now, but I remember its openness.  I liked that, but being new to online gaming I was a bit overwhelmed and gave up.

Knowing what I know now, I wish I could go back and enjoy SWG (before my friend claims they ruined it).  Games like EVE seem very intriguing, but when I DLed it I just didn't enjoy how technical it was.  Sometimes I wanna just have some mindless fun.  Not only that, but I enjoy slashing faces with an axe!

One of the most fun RPGs I played (not an MMO) is Mount and Blade.  The games fighting mechanics and large battles are amazing.  I get really pissed and love just hacking and slashing.  I feel like there is actually skill involved rather than just counting combo points and clicking my finisher (yay, I have my cd and he doesn't, i win!). 

Is there any game out there that is an MMO that plays like Mount and Blade?  If there isn't why the heck havent developers tries to make it?

Originally posted by bardlehel

I'm wondering if one could make the distinction between sandboxes and themeparks by necessity of social interaction.  One of the reasons I loved UO and really don't like WoW-style games is that it was a truly online game--where interacting with other players was the central part of gameplay.  With WoW style games, being in a guild or interacting with other players is totally optional.  

Next to having the freedom and ability to be creative in sandbox MMOs, trying new things out all the time, I miss the community and player interaction.  Themeparks never really hold me because it feels like the MMO is tied to a game where players have the option of being social or anti-social, playing through quests and not talking to anyone--as if it were a hybrid between a single-player game and a game with a large lobby with some multiplayer features tied in.

No doubt theme-park style MMOs can be commercially successful because they cater to casual gamers and soccer moms who don't like FFA PVP.  But how to make a sandbox MMO that could be commercially successful post-WOW would be another thread.  Of course, its only part game-design;  more than half the battle is marketing/business strategy.

If there are any good MMOs where there is heavy player interaction (rich social environment), please let me know. That is what I'm looking to play right now.  Dissapointed with SWTOR as again, there is no need for other players to talk with me at all.

 

Great post