Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Cuathon

They act like SWTOR has subs purely on the value of its experience. Just like they did with WoW. Its pathetic and embarrassing. Sure SWTOR is a fun game, but that is not the most important reason for its success just as it wasn't for WoW. A game is only required to be good enough. After that its all marketing.

If at launch, or in the years following its release, a game with geniunely superior gameplay to WOW had relesed, I would've played that game.  Marketing doesn't matter at all to me; I'm a gamer, I try everything and stay with whatever offers the strongest gameplay.

Instead what happened is that I'm settling for games that are only 80-90% as fun as WOW was, purely because WOW is super old at this point.

Marketing doesn't hold subscriptions.  Gameplay does.  WOW's gameplay happened to be the best for many years (and arguably still is, if you factor out the "been there, done that" effect.)

Stop looking at every game as if your opinion is the be all and end all. I know dozens of people who played WoW because of all the marketing when they had never even heards of MMOs before. You may be a gamer but a lot of people aren't and they only play one or two games. Most people only play one game aside from FPS/Sports/Nintendo games.

When I played TAO 95% of the active players with 1000+ posts on the forum and good ranking only played TAO. If I brought up an MMO or an RTS game, aside from starcraft/warcraft, they had no idea wtf I was on about. They do play a buttload of HALO, COD, FIFA though.

Mention WoW, then LotRO, then GW, then EvE to people you know irl at work or school and tell me how many of them know anything about any of them besides WoW? My fucking grandpa knows what WoW is and he can't get his email to work right.

Originally posted by lalartu

I'm not sure what you're compaining about.

 

LOTRO is in top 10 games score wise on this website and it's quite  a popular game.

It has a huge playerbase too, at least according to Xfire

 

most games that are worth mentioning/playing have enough players. 

 

trying games by smaller companies that are not in the spotlight will only lead one to a conclusion that most MMOs are a cheap  copy of one another. there are very few games made by small companies that are fun/successful and are worth playing (I can only think of one - Eve Online)

Swtor is not even in the top 20 if someon actually take player ratings from this website seriously...

http://www.gamespace.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc

Originally posted by spizz

Originally posted by lalartu

I'm not sure what you're compaining about.

 

LOTRO is in top 10 games score wise on this website and it's quite  a popular game.

It has a huge playerbase too, at least according to Xfire

 

most games that are worth mentioning/playing have enough players. 

 

trying games by smaller companies that are not in the spotlight will only lead one to a conclusion that most MMOs are a cheap  copy of one another. there are very few games made by small companies that are fun/successful and are worth playing (I can only think of one - Eve Online)

Swtor is not even in the top 20 if someon actually take player ratings from this website seriously...

http://www.gamespace.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc

No one should take a site seriously when the top rating belongs to a game that has not been released.

Getting back ont topic.. Big companies taking your money..

I feel this is an interesting subject. Facts are many of these new so called AAA+ titles are little more then disguised Slotmachines... They make its players run like ratts in mouse wheels.. grinding for potential drops. The player himself has no way of effecting anything in the world. He is forced to be lead by the Nose like a deer to a waterhole. They are based on taking advantege of the Human psyke.. having them run after a carrot but never getting fully satisfied, as there is always another carrot beyoned the horizone. If you look at them closly you will see that they hold little to no substance...

This summer EvE onlines player base held CCP (makers of the game) hostage.. we forced them to change policy... For a company this is a horrible outcome, No sane Publisher want the masses dictating what they should be doing. They want the consumer to consume and consume some more and be happy and oblivious about anything ells. I think this is the main reason we dont see anny Sandbox AAA+ titles. Because the investors and developers dont want the Players to Hijack their games. They want to be in control and to lead its player base were it wants them. They want to know exacly what we as players are doing and control our development inside the game. That is what Big money dose to everything.... and it has totaly ruined the MMO industry..( I feel that it has anyways, I know many of you dissagree with me, but that is my point of view)

I don't mind single player games with multiplayer lobbies because some players evidently like that. But that should be a genre of its own.

SWTOR would never be considered an MMO 10 years ago. Even the engine is not designed to support large groups of players in same areas. So, why is it considered an MMO when its designed around cooperative gameplay? Because industry gets to decide.

With such a short list of MMOs worth any attention players are often more excited about upcomming titles instead of the ones they are currently playing. If there were MMOs out there capable of entertaining for more than a few months things would be the other way around.

If there's a MMO release within the last few years that still has plenty of people running around doing stuff together please let me know. I'd be happy to try it out. I've played a dozen from the top 30 on this site and every single one of them felt deserted for a new player like me.

The moment the world began to realize MMO = $$$, they attached the word MMO to everything.

That's why the LOTRO movie triology wasn't called Fellowship, Two Towers, or Return.

Officially, they were called...

1) The Fellowship of the Ring MMO

2) MMO Two Towers

3) Return of the MMO King

Instantly, Peter Jackson made an extra $500 billion for that ingenius titling.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by spizz

Originally posted by lalartu

I'm not sure what you're compaining about.

 

LOTRO is in top 10 games score wise on this website and it's quite  a popular game.

It has a huge playerbase too, at least according to Xfire

 

most games that are worth mentioning/playing have enough players. 

 

trying games by smaller companies that are not in the spotlight will only lead one to a conclusion that most MMOs are a cheap  copy of one another. there are very few games made by small companies that are fun/successful and are worth playing (I can only think of one - Eve Online)

Swtor is not even in the top 20 if someon actually take player ratings from this website seriously...

http://www.gamespace.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc

No one should take a site seriously when the top rating belongs to a game that has not been released.

 

No one should ever take ANYTHING on this website seriously. Article, review, rating, moderator, or forum post.

This is MMORPG.com-- the place where dignity goes to die.

Originally posted by Theonenoni

Honestly though, these big companies like EA, Bioware know how stupid the consumer is and crap out a game like SWTOR and call it an MMO with a sub fee.  I think over half the people who bought SWTOR did no research on the game and simply bought it for its name which hurts the MMO industry. Say these consumers where new to the MMO genre and their first game is SWTOR.  They probably wont give any other MMO game out there a chance because of how SWTOR is. I couldnt merit SWTOR being an MMO at all. 

Having ragged on SWTOR I'm tryng to say that players need to try games that are made by developers they have never heard of before.  There are tons of MMOs out there(just check the list that this site has!) to try out and people on these forums cry about their newly bought game because it doesnt have this "feature" or  the UI is the same as WoW or something. Speaking of UI can anyone think of a better way to show a skill bar?(didnt think so) There are games out there that let you customize your UI , you just have to look.   There are going to be UI that look the same because they work and why try to fix something that isnt broken? 

Check out LOTRO, your traditional run of the mill MMO. Made by Turbine. Its a good game but nobody talks about it because its not made by Blizzard, Bioware, or NCsoft.  

How is League of Legends an MMO?  It is a MOBA.  The game is a 5v5 hero battle arena...... If League of Legends is an MMO than Call of Duty is an MMO and so if every other moultiplayer game out there. 

For the sake of new companies trying to get their business going please players, I say try out their game by beta or trial.  

LOTR  was crap. The whole game looked like someone resurrected windows 3.11 and made an mmo out of it

Originally posted by spizz

Originally posted by lalartu

I'm not sure what you're compaining about.

 

LOTRO is in top 10 games score wise on this website and it's quite  a popular game.

It has a huge playerbase too, at least according to Xfire

 

most games that are worth mentioning/playing have enough players. 

 

trying games by smaller companies that are not in the spotlight will only lead one to a conclusion that most MMOs are a cheap  copy of one another. there are very few games made by small companies that are fun/successful and are worth playing (I can only think of one - Eve Online)

Swtor is not even in the top 20 if someon actually take player ratings from this website seriously...

http://www.gamespace.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc

Forgive me for being ignorant, but why would your link be at gamespace instead of mmorpg.com? Is it a sister site or something?

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc

Originally posted by SanHor

I don't mind single player games with multiplayer lobbies because some players evidently like that. But that should be a genre of its own.

SWTOR would never be considered an MMO 10 years ago. Even the engine is not designed to support large groups of players in same areas. So, why is it considered an MMO when its designed around cooperative gameplay? Because industry gets to decide.

With such a short list of MMOs worth any attention players are often more excited about upcomming titles instead of the ones they are currently playing. If there were MMOs out there capable of entertaining for more than a few months things would be the other way around.

If there's a MMO release within the last few years that still has plenty of people running around doing stuff together please let me know. I'd be happy to try it out. I've played a dozen from the top 30 on this site and every single one of them felt deserted for a new player like me.

It does not matter what they are called. A good game is a good game. A bad game is a bad game.

Last few years? STO has plenty of players after going F2P. Ditto for DDO last time i checked. Both games are CROWDED.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Getting back ont topic.. Big companies taking your money..

I feel this is an interesting subject. Facts are many of these new so called AAA+ titles are little more then disguised Slotmachines... They make its players run like ratts in mouse wheels.. grinding for potential drops. The player himself has no way of effecting anything in the world. He is forced to be lead by the Nose like a deer to a waterhole. They are based on taking advantege of the Human psyke.. having them run after a carrot but never getting fully satisfied, as there is always another carrot beyoned the horizone. If you look at them closly you will see that they hold little to no substance...

This summer EvE onlines player base held CCP (makers of the game) hostage.. we forced them to change policy... For a company this is a horrible outcome, No sane Publisher want the masses dictating what they should be doing. They want the consumer to consume and consume some more and be happy and oblivious about anything ells. I think this is the main reason we dont see anny Sandbox AAA+ titles. Because the investors and developers dont want the Players to Hijack their games. They want to be in control and to lead its player base were it wants them. They want to know exacly what we as players are doing and control our development inside the game. That is what Big money dose to everything.... and it has totaly ruined the MMO industry..( I feel that it has anyways, I know many of you dissagree with me, but that is my point of view)

Well, I agree 100%. I resent the fact that 95% of the current market caters to themepark players excusively  - just because they are the most profitable target audience due to their shallow conception of gaming, community, and player interaction, doesn't mean that they are the only audience out there.

Yes, I'm an elitist.  

I prefer depth, intelligence and complexity to shallowness, stupidity and simplicity. Why should I be ashamed of that?

I would count SWToR in the "Games that aren't mmo's" category, SWToR should have been a single player title because for the most part it plays like one.

Originally posted by Siveria

I would count SWToR in the "Games that aren't mmo's" category, SWToR should have been a single player title because for the most part it plays like one.

SWTOR is in the same category as current WoW and GW1 as co op and lobby based instance games. Having 3 shitty large player team arena things doesn't count as mmo.

Originally posted by Theonenoni

Honestly though, these big companies like EA, Bioware know how stupid the consumer is and crap out a game like SWTOR and call it an MMO with a sub fee.  I think over half the people who bought SWTOR did no research on the game and simply bought it for its name which hurts the MMO industry. Say these consumers where new to the MMO genre and their first game is SWTOR.  They probably wont give any other MMO game out there a chance because of how SWTOR is. I couldnt merit SWTOR being an MMO at all. 

Having ragged on SWTOR I'm tryng to say that players need to try games that are made by developers they have never heard of before.  There are tons of MMOs out there(just check the list that this site has!) to try out and people on these forums cry about their newly bought game because it doesnt have this "feature" or  the UI is the same as WoW or something. Speaking of UI can anyone think of a better way to show a skill bar?(didnt think so) There are games out there that let you customize your UI , you just have to look.   There are going to be UI that look the same because they work and why try to fix something that isnt broken? 

Check out LOTRO, your traditional run of the mill MMO. Made by Turbine. Its a good game but nobody talks about it because its not made by Blizzard, Bioware, or NCsoft.  

How is League of Legends an MMO?  It is a MOBA.  The game is a 5v5 hero battle arena...... If League of Legends is an MMO than Call of Duty is an MMO and so if every other moultiplayer game out there. 

For the sake of new companies trying to get their business going please players, I say try out their game by beta or trial.  

Heh , I did my research a while back on SWTOR , just the fact that EA had something to do with it turned me off big time , I'm a anti EA guy myself , so it was a no brainer.  EA should of stick with only making sport games and stay away from any other genre of gaming. When they screwed up WestWood studios, was the day I became a anti EA person.

 Take End of Nations for example , a MMO releasing sometime this year (I hope) and just the fact that it's being worked on by  Ex-Members of WestWood studios and having watched and listened every Dev Diary and gameplay footage just makes me itch to play the game ASAP. Since WestWood studios were the Gods of RTS back in the day with C&C before EA came along and screwed everything up.

 The problem with LoTro is that it's almost a perfect clone of WoW , even down to the HP/MP bars , they could of been abit more original , especially that LoTro released not long after WoW , so there was alot of room for change-ups.

 NCSoft is garbage , the day they release a MMO and publicly announce that they will hire GM's to actually fight  botting , I will not bother with them.

 Only thing Blizzard is known for was Diablo 1 and 2 , Warcraft 2 and star craft 1.   Ever since Blizzard ditch out Blizzard North (fathers of the Diablo franchise) , they haven't done much , and the only reason WoW is popular is not because of Warcraft but because of the Diablo Franchise. Without both Diablos major success , WoW would of been nothing , so in the end Blizzard North were the kings of the mountain. As for Blizzard ... meh , they are owned by Activision are they not?  How's that working out for them?

Originally posted by Theonenoni

Honestly though, these big companies like EA, Bioware know how stupid the consumer is and crap out a game like SWTOR and call it an MMO with a sub fee.  I think over half the people who bought SWTOR did no research on the game and simply bought it for its name which hurts the MMO industry. Say these consumers where new to the MMO genre and their first game is SWTOR.  They probably wont give any other MMO game out there a chance because of how SWTOR is. I couldnt merit SWTOR being an MMO at all. 

Having ragged on SWTOR I'm tryng to say that players need to try games that are made by developers they have never heard of before.  There are tons of MMOs out there(just check the list that this site has!) to try out and people on these forums cry about their newly bought game because it doesnt have this "feature" or  the UI is the same as WoW or something. Speaking of UI can anyone think of a better way to show a skill bar?(didnt think so) There are games out there that let you customize your UI , you just have to look.   There are going to be UI that look the same because they work and why try to fix something that isnt broken? 

Check out LOTRO, your traditional run of the mill MMO. Made by Turbine. Its a good game but nobody talks about it because its not made by Blizzard, Bioware, or NCsoft.  

How is League of Legends an MMO?  It is a MOBA.  The game is a 5v5 hero battle arena...... If League of Legends is an MMO than Call of Duty is an MMO and so if every other moultiplayer game out there. 

For the sake of new companies trying to get their business going please players, I say try out their game by beta or trial.  

Just because you dislike a game doesn't make it less an MMO.

League of Legends is a MOBA.  No one is calling it an MMO.  This website follows LoL because it has a massive gamer base and they want to cash in on that.

SWTOR is an MMO whether you want to call it that or not. Electronic Arts purchased the Mythic Studio that gave us Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online.  This studio has been incorporated into Bioware and is now called 'Mythic Bioware."  Bioware-Austin has taken many of the talents from the Mythic Studio to help them with their SWTOR project.

A large part of why it has been so succesful is because of how much experience they have had with MMOs, especially failed ones.

It's clear you were not around at the launch of LOTRO.  When LOTRO first came out it was all the buzz and everyone was talking about it.  No one buzzes about it anymore because it just isn't a big thing anymore.  It didn't do particularly well and has become another Turbine free to play game.

If people want to play free games they are always free to do so.  A lot of people choose to play a subscription because that ensures quality.  When something is free you won't get quality service.  It's sort of like how a lot of people buy bottled water despite water coming from the tap for free.

Originally posted by troublmaker

Originally posted by Theonenoni

Honestly though, these big companies like EA, Bioware know how stupid the consumer is and crap out a game like SWTOR and call it an MMO with a sub fee.  I think over half the people who bought SWTOR did no research on the game and simply bought it for its name which hurts the MMO industry. Say these consumers where new to the MMO genre and their first game is SWTOR.  They probably wont give any other MMO game out there a chance because of how SWTOR is. I couldnt merit SWTOR being an MMO at all. 

Having ragged on SWTOR I'm tryng to say that players need to try games that are made by developers they have never heard of before.  There are tons of MMOs out there(just check the list that this site has!) to try out and people on these forums cry about their newly bought game because it doesnt have this "feature" or  the UI is the same as WoW or something. Speaking of UI can anyone think of a better way to show a skill bar?(didnt think so) There are games out there that let you customize your UI , you just have to look.   There are going to be UI that look the same because they work and why try to fix something that isnt broken? 

Check out LOTRO, your traditional run of the mill MMO. Made by Turbine. Its a good game but nobody talks about it because its not made by Blizzard, Bioware, or NCsoft.  

How is League of Legends an MMO?  It is a MOBA.  The game is a 5v5 hero battle arena...... If League of Legends is an MMO than Call of Duty is an MMO and so if every other moultiplayer game out there. 

For the sake of new companies trying to get their business going please players, I say try out their game by beta or trial.  

Just because you dislike a game doesn't make it less an MMO.

League of Legends is a MOBA.  No one is calling it an MMO.  This website follows LoL because it has a massive gamer base and they want to cash in on that.

SWTOR is an MMO whether you want to call it that or not. Electronic Arts purchased the Mythic Studio that gave us Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online.  This studio has been incorporated into Bioware and is now called 'Mythic Bioware."  Bioware-Austin has taken many of the talents from the Mythic Studio to help them with their SWTOR project.

A large part of why it has been so succesful is because of how much experience they have had with MMOs, especially failed ones.

It's clear you were not around at the launch of LOTRO.  When LOTRO first came out it was all the buzz and everyone was talking about it.  No one buzzes about it anymore because it just isn't a big thing anymore.  It didn't do particularly well and has become another Turbine free to play game.

If people want to play free games they are always free to do so.  A lot of people choose to play a subscription because that ensures quality.  When something is free you won't get quality service.  It's sort of like how a lot of people buy bottled water despite water coming from the tap for free.

SWTOR's success came from the Star Wars IP. I question how much input the Mythic devs had in any of this because they have experience of real mmo's and this game fails in so many ways as an mmo.

Originally posted by Theonenoni

Honestly though, these big companies like EA, Bioware know how stupid the consumer is and crap out a game like SWTOR and call it an MMO with a sub fee.  I think over half the people who bought SWTOR did no research on the game and simply bought it for its name which hurts the MMO industry. Say these consumers where new to the MMO genre and their first game is SWTOR.  They probably wont give any other MMO game out there a chance because of how SWTOR is. I couldnt merit SWTOR being an MMO at all. 

Having ragged on SWTOR I'm tryng to say that players need to try games that are made by developers they have never heard of before.  There are tons of MMOs out there(just check the list that this site has!) to try out and people on these forums cry about their newly bought game because it doesnt have this "feature" or  the UI is the same as WoW or something. Speaking of UI can anyone think of a better way to show a skill bar?(didnt think so) There are games out there that let you customize your UI , you just have to look.   There are going to be UI that look the same because they work and why try to fix something that isnt broken? 

Check out LOTRO, your traditional run of the mill MMO. Made by Turbine. Its a good game but nobody talks about it because its not made by Blizzard, Bioware, or NCsoft.  

How is League of Legends an MMO?  It is a MOBA.  The game is a 5v5 hero battle arena...... If League of Legends is an MMO than Call of Duty is an MMO and so if every other moultiplayer game out there. 

For the sake of new companies trying to get their business going please players, I say try out their game by beta or trial.  

i bought Swtor because i know its very similar to WoW and thats what i want, a game similar to WoW but a different IP and improved features that WoW is missing. Sadly Swtor didnt make up for it (for me).

Lotro could have been a great mmo but it is badly managed and its more of a PvE game, PvPers look somewhere else. LOTR IP is very good but if the game is not well managed then the game wont go too high up the hill.

Leage of Legends is a MOBA and everyone knows that, i dont know why you complain that it is not an mmorpg.... besides, lotro and LoL should not be in your post because your title says companie taking your money.... you dont have to pay in those 2 games unless you want to.

Originally posted by Biskop

Originally posted by Zlayer77

 

Well, I agree 100%. I resent the fact that 95% of the current market caters to themepark players excusively  - just because they are the most profitable target audience due to their shallow conception of gaming, community, and player interaction, doesn't mean that they are the only audience out there.

Yes, I'm an elitist.  

I prefer depth, intelligence and complexity to shallowness, stupidity and simplicity. Why should I be ashamed of that?

You should not be ashamed but you also shouldn't be surprised if your taste isn't met by a lot of companies cause, like you said, you only represent a small % of the MMO market.

Originally posted by jpnz

You should not be ashamed but you also shouldn't be surprised if your taste isn't met by a lot of companies cause, like you said, you only represent a small % of the MMO market.

That % might be small compared to the millions of WoW, TOR, and Rift players, but it's not so small that a smart and creative company would be unable to profit from it.

Obviously, both EVE and UO are profitable games, albeit not as profitable as WoW but they are still alive after many years and they retain a commited playerbase. Meanwhile, many gamers complain about the decline of MMO gaming, how they want the old-school games back, and so on - and the huge disappointment with the recent "sandbox" attempts like MO and DFO only goes to show that a lot of people do want hard, challenging, open games. But they also want those games to be good, not amateur projects.

What we need is competent, experienced devs with a focused vision, and some investors with the balls to back it.

Originally posted by Theonenoni

Honestly though, these big companies like EA, Bioware know how stupid the consumer is and crap out a game like SWTOR and call it an MMO with a sub fee.  I think over half the people who bought SWTOR did no research on the game and simply bought it for its name which hurts the MMO industry. Say these consumers where new to the MMO genre and their first game is SWTOR.  They probably wont give any other MMO game out there a chance because of how SWTOR is. I couldnt merit SWTOR being an MMO at all. 

Having ragged on SWTOR I'm tryng to say that players need to try games that are made by developers they have never heard of before.  There are tons of MMOs out there(just check the list that this site has!) to try out and people on these forums cry about their newly bought game because it doesnt have this "feature" or  the UI is the same as WoW or something. Speaking of UI can anyone think of a better way to show a skill bar?(didnt think so) There are games out there that let you customize your UI , you just have to look.   There are going to be UI that look the same because they work and why try to fix something that isnt broken? 

Check out LOTRO, your traditional run of the mill MMO. Made by Turbine. Its a good game but nobody talks about it because its not made by Blizzard, Bioware, or NCsoft.  

How is League of Legends an MMO?  It is a MOBA.  The game is a 5v5 hero battle arena...... If League of Legends is an MMO than Call of Duty is an MMO and so if every other moultiplayer game out there. 

For the sake of new companies trying to get their business going please players, I say try out their game by beta or trial.  

Trust me about the 2.5/4 of the  whole world has tried wow and the other 1.5 has seen it in action because their friends were playing it.

So  trust me people know how a good mmo feels.They didn't wait for swtor to show them how an mmo feels.

They know what is a good mmo simply because wow exists.They simply gave a chance to bioware/ea.We all give a chance and sometimes we may give a second chance but with beeing very cautious(waiting reviews etc).3rd chance?No there is no 3rd chance at all.

Ea has recieved the title of the game destroyer.Whatever she touches the last years turns into crap.I had enough of their stupidity and swtor was the "i had enough of them".