From looking over the list of sandbox games, i was not suprised to see its current sad state. Itas no wonder independent investors refuse to make a sandbox games versus themepark games. What the sandbox audience WANTS is some developers that have the experience, and the know hows expertise in sandbox games. Ladies, and gentleman.

If Bethseda the company behind fallout, elder scrolls makes a truely sandbox type mmorpg. Then i believe the sandbox community will flourish. They have the experitse, experience, large cash capital to make this happen. When i buy single player rpg games, i look at who is developing them. You and all the other rpg players know that Bethseda brand alone is enough for the hype, and when you purchase their games its worth the $60.

Now bethseda never said they wont make a mmorpg, so folks there is hope.And no i dont trust so called independent compies that i dont know about developing any type of mmorpg, even sandbox ones. After the fiasco that is darkfall, and mortal online.

I would love to hear your opinions on reviving sandbox mmorpgs. Bethseda has a perfect track record, just like all the other major companies such as blizzard ent., ea/bioware. So what do you guys think? good idea bad idea? Can companies such as Bethseda help revive sandbox style mmorpg?

Originally posted by Bobbie203

Now bethseda never said they wont make a mmorpg,

Actually I hear there is a Fallout Online coming soon. I dont know if Bethesda is developing it or not, though.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Bobbie203

Now bethseda never said they wont make a mmorpg,

Actually I hear there is a Fallout Online coming soon. I dont know if Bethesda is developing it or not, though.

http://www.falloutonlineforum.com/showthread.php?16-Fallout-Online-Announced!

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Bobbie203

Now bethseda never said they wont make a mmorpg,

Actually I hear there is a Fallout Online coming soon. I dont know if Bethesda is developing it or not, though.

http://www.falloutonlineforum.com/showthread.php?16-Fallout-Online-Announced!

Being developed by Interplay and Masthead eh? Thats a little disappointing.

The only sure method of getting good sandbox games back is to stop paying for crappy themeparks. 

As a customer base, we can't keep supporting these companies and their subpar games with our cash and expect changes. If developers can continue to spend a minimal amount of investment on developing for quick box sales, why would they bother with anything more?

Don't want crap? Stop paying for crap. 

That's what I did and if more people would jump onboard instead of throwing cash around at the latest over-hyped half-a** project like crazed crack junkies, perhaps things will change.

Bethesda? Perhaps, but don't hold your breath. They'll most likely take the quick and easy way out too, fast box sales.

But Bethesda doesn't make Sandbox games.  They make themeparks where you get to choose the ride you ride at your leisure rather than being forced in a direction by game mechanics.

This only occurs elegantly in a singleplayer game where the entire experience can form around the player.  The mobs can auto-level to your level.  In a shared persistent world it isn't possible -- at least not elegantly.

Sandboxes have massive potential as non-MMO experiences where players can't screw up each others' experience, but in MMO form they've been really weak so far.

Still, I guess I still feel like a gameplay-heavy sandbox MMO could be successful (as opposed to the world-simulation-heavy sandboxes we've seen so far, which tend to die off due to the moment-to-moment gameplay being really boring.)

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Bobbie203

Now bethseda never said they wont make a mmorpg,

Actually I hear there is a Fallout Online coming soon. I dont know if Bethesda is developing it or not, though.

http://www.falloutonlineforum.com/showthread.php?16-Fallout-Online-Announced!

Being developed by Interplay and Masthead eh? Thats a little disappointing.

Bethesda retook those rights actually so it's not even in the making anymore. http://www.pixlbit.com/news/1689/bethesda_wins_lawsuit_over_fallout

What really is needed is some devs that stop looking on UO and try out new ideas. Yeah, UO was a great game 15 years ago but it seems like almost all sandbox devs just try to remake it today.

There is so many possibilities to make a great sandbox MMO but a great game will need originality as well as a competent team making it.

It is very well possible that Zenimax (Bethesda) maight be the company that reinstate the sandboxes for MMOs but there are others as well. And I am not so sure that their game even is a sandbox, what I do know is that one of the people behind DaoC is laed designer of whatever they are making.

Bethesda make a mmo? sounds like it would be the buggiest game of the century. I dont care who makes the mmo but someone needs too.

I think there are different strokes for different folks.

Some people love WoW and what it offers. Some people, including myself love Mortal Online even for what it is now (that doesnt mean that I wouldnt change some things about it). Some people will love GW2 or Archeage and some wont.

I tend to hover towards the sandbox-ish games where crafting, realism, and open-world is king.

But hear me out on this, nobody knew blizzard's wow woudl change the industry at the time back in 2004.

I sure hope bethseda decides to make the sandbox. You know they are in good hands. I sure hope it does, i woudl be hyped definately.

Originally posted by Bobbie203

From looking over the list of sandbox games, i was not suprised to see its current sad state. Itas no wonder independent investors refuse to make a sandbox games versus themepark games. What the sandbox audience WANTS is some developers that have the experience, and the know hows expertise in sandbox games. Ladies, and gentleman.

If Bethseda the company behind fallout, elder scrolls makes a truely sandbox type mmorpg. Then i believe the sandbox community will flourish. They have the experitse, experience, large cash capital to make this happen. When i buy single player rpg games, i look at who is developing them. You and all the other rpg players know that Bethseda brand alone is enough for the hype, and when you purchase their games its worth the $60.

 

Now bethseda never said they wont make a mmorpg, so folks there is hope.And no i dont trust so called independent compies that i dont know about developing any type of mmorpg, even sandbox ones. After the fiasco that is darkfall, and mortal online.

 

I would love to hear your opinions on reviving sandbox mmorpgs. Bethseda has a perfect track record, just like all the other major companies such as blizzard ent., ea/bioware. So what do you guys think? good idea bad idea? Can companies such as Bethseda help revive sandbox style mmorpg?

The reason there aren't more people playing "Sandbox" MMORPGs isn't because big publishers haven't made them...its because they don't appeal to the mass / mainstream audience. 

*MOST* people that play video games are "Casual Gamers".  They don't dedicate all their entertainment from gaming....and have jobs, families, and other things in life that would interupt long sessions of gaming.  As a result, they favor gaming experiences that are short, rewarding, and don't require a lot of time invested in socializing, working with deep game mechanics, or steep learning curves.

Sandbox features like...

Group dependent content - takes too much time to coordinate & collaborate with others...I need to be able to do what i want, when I want

Skill based systems - takes too much effort in matching specific skills to create an arch-type...just give me a class & levels so I can go go go

Player Driven Content - takes too much effort to create own goals & macro-game within the game...just give me a dungeon to run or quest line to finish.

Open ended progression - takes to much time / effort to level specific skills in an aimless open world....just give me some quests & dungeons for gear & levels to measure my progression

etc....

Those things that make Traditional MMORPGs special are viewed as impedments or roadblocks for mainstream casual gamers.  The developers of World of Warcraft said so much in an interview about their early development.  They recognized that the gaming industries most lucrative pricing model (Box Sale + Reoccuring Monthly Fee) was being WAISTED on gaming's most niche audience (MMORPGs)

So Blizzard set out to make a MMORPG that would be appealing to the largest subsection of gamers....Casual Gamers.  They did things like making the game less group dependent, reduced the amount of time needed to gain wealth & items, and vastly reduced the level of risk required to get rewards in order to lower the barriers of entry for new gamers to the MMO market.

Now that Blizzard has proved that casual MMORPGs (Themeparks) has a MASSIVE audience, but requires a MASSIVE amount of money to sustain the business model, all the big AAA publishers are making games for that audience.

If the expectation is that it will take 10s - 100s of millions of dollars to create a well polished / full featured MMORPG, in a HIGHLY competitive market, they will not invest that money in a niche sandbox game that MIGHT have as many subscribers as a mediocre themepark game.

EVE Online is regarded as one of the more successful sandbox games in the market and it pulls in around 300k subs.  Warhammer Online is regarded as one of the more UNsucessful themepark games in the market and it has around 300k subs.

It's all about finances.  It's just not economicly viable to make the level of investment required to deliver a fully polished MMO when it only has an upside of 300-500k subs.

So since EA / NCSoft don't think its a good economic investment to create sandbox games for niche audiences, the Indie developers are left to fill the gap.  You end up with Adventurine taking over 6 years to deliver Darkfall.  You end up with Star Vault releasing a half finished Mortal Online.  You end up with games that have shotty graphic engines & full of bugs because the development houses don't have the cash to deliver polish & features.

There is a reason the AAA publishers haven't touched a sandbox in over 6 years......they estimate that the number of potential subscribers (revenue stream) is too low to match the investment required to deliver a game up to the AAA standard. 

Originally posted by Zekiah

The only sure method of getting good sandbox games back is to stop paying for crappy themeparks. 

As a customer base, we can't keep supporting these companies and their subpar games with our cash and expect changes. If developers can continue to spend a minimal amount of investment on developing for quick box sales, why would they bother with anything more?

Don't want crap? Stop paying for crap. 

That's what I did and if more people would jump onboard instead of throwing cash around at the latest over-hyped half-a** project like crazed crack junkies, perhaps things will change.

Bethesda? Perhaps, but don't hold your breath. They'll most likely take the quick and easy way out too, fast box sales.

Totally right on the money, (pun intended)

But in all seriousness, you are basicly talking about a general MMO strike. Or, in a closer to reality truth, If you don't like the crap, it is time to quit playing MMOs.

Money rules all, without it you can't do anything, develop, launch, set up server farm, yadda yadda. Inverstors don't let anyone use their money for free, so they have expectations. Frankly since it is their money they SHOULD have expectations. The crap sells and makes money, so that is what the investors want.

So ya, make piece with it, or do what we all swore we would do and step away from the keyboard.

Lame. Isnt it?

IMO the best way to get big name companies to make sanboxes or hell, even a sandpark. iswell...to have one of these companies go out on a limb and actually make a GOOD sanbox.

MO, DF and all the rest of the sanbioxes are total and utter crap. nowonder they dont succeed. and no wonbder a big name company doesnt make one.

for me, I'm done with themeparks. played wow for years and years. loved it, but it got worse over time and finally i just couldnt log in any longer. tried ToR, AC, Rift(liked this one) and many others. but I alweays end up having the feeling that I've done this before. not only in that gamne but in every other game as well.

Nothing has ever compared to my SWG pre CU time. had 2 characters, one was a Creature handler, rifleman, the other a crafter. was great just runnign around gathering pets to display in my house that i had build and decorated myself.

every few months I would redecorate. I loved it. rarely felt like i was doing the same thing over and over and over.

in short, we just n eed one big company to take a chance and actually make a good sanbox. heres to hoping arche age rocks as much as im praying it will

There is nothing to solve. Sandbox has been tried before and it was not that successful.

Fundamentally, you cannot force something people do not find fun on them. WOW is successful because it is a good game, and it understand how people want to play and have fun.

All these ideals about virtual world, community, risk vs reward ... are just empty talk. Choices are what matters. Since games are entertainment products, people will not pay for, and play if they are not fun (or at least more fun than the competitiion).

Look at TOR .. it sold like 2M boxes with 1.7 subs. You cannot argue it is not those 1.7M players want. It is at least good enough to warrant playing it more than a month.

Originally posted by Bobbie203

But hear me out on this, nobody knew blizzard's wow woudl change the industry at the time back in 2004.

 

I sure hope bethseda decides to make the sandbox. You know they are in good hands. I sure hope it does, i woudl be hyped definately.

Consumers didn't now....but I have a feeling that Blizzard had a good idea that they were going into uncharted territory by introducing the first MMORPG made for the "every gamer".

Look at it like this.....lets say your Blizzard looking at the MMORPG industry.  You see an ENORMOUS earning potential with the pricing model.  MMORPGs were the only kind of game where it was acceptable to charge your customers a re-occuring monthly fee, in addition to the box sale. (If ONLY Blizzard could have found a way to charge all their Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft customers $15 a month to continue playing their game!!!)

EA & Sony must be making hand over fist right?  Yea...but it could be more.  Ultima Online (EA's MMO) made the guiness book of world records for most subscriptions for an online game in the year 2000 at 200k subscribers.  Ever Quest (Sony's MMO) topped out a few years later at around 1,000,000 subscribers.

In an early development interview, one of the WOW developers was quoted as saying they studied the existing MMORPGs and found that many gamers that tried out MMORPGs quit because they took too long to get things done, had too many dependencies on other people to get stuff done, and had too steep of a learning curve on how to be successful at the game.  Blizzard's express intent during the development of WOW was to MINIMIZE those features of MMORPGs that turned off the "every day gamer".  They understood that if they could tap the LARGEST subsection of gamers (Casual Gamers) with the industries most lucrative pricing model (Box Sale + Reoccuring Fee), it would be a HUGE financial success.

Look up the Blue Oceans / Red Seas marketing theory.  Blizzard made their own new audience (Casual MMORPG gamers) in a competitive market w/ low margins.

Originally posted by MattNe

Originally posted by Zekiah

The only sure method of getting good sandbox games back is to stop paying for crappy themeparks. 

As a customer base, we can't keep supporting these companies and their subpar games with our cash and expect changes. If developers can continue to spend a minimal amount of investment on developing for quick box sales, why would they bother with anything more?

Don't want crap? Stop paying for crap. 

That's what I did and if more people would jump onboard instead of throwing cash around at the latest over-hyped half-a** project like crazed crack junkies, perhaps things will change.

Bethesda? Perhaps, but don't hold your breath. They'll most likely take the quick and easy way out too, fast box sales.

Totally right on the money, (pun intended)

But in all seriousness, you are basicly talking about a general MMO strike. Or, in a closer to reality truth, If you don't like the crap, it is time to quit playing MMOs.

Money rules all, without it you can't do anything, develop, launch, set up server farm, yadda yadda. Inverstors don't let anyone use their money for free, so they have expectations. Frankly since it is their money they SHOULD have expectations. The crap sells and makes money, so that is what the investors want.

 

So ya, make piece with it, or do what we all swore we would do and step away from the keyboard.

Lame. Isnt it?

We have nobody to blame but ourselves, we're the ones throwing money at this continual stream of garbage. A strike or boycott would work but I think there's just way too many junkies out there jonesing for their next fix and are willing to pay for junk-cut product.

Maybe we need some kind of intervention or something. 

Off topic, but I always thought EQ topped at around 450k subscribers?

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Bobbie203

But hear me out on this, nobody knew blizzard's wow woudl change the industry at the time back in 2004.

 

I sure hope bethseda decides to make the sandbox. You know they are in good hands. I sure hope it does, i woudl be hyped definately.

Consumers didn't now....but I have a feeling that Blizzard had a good idea that they were going into uncharted territory by introducing the first MMORPG made for the "every gamer".

 

Look at it like this.....lets say your Blizzard looking at the MMORPG industry.  You see an ENORMOUS earning potential with the pricing model.  MMORPGs were the only kind of game where it was acceptable to charge your customers a re-occuring monthly fee, in addition to the box sale. (If ONLY Blizzard could have found a way to charge all their Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft customers $15 a month to continue playing their game!!!)

 

EA & Sony must be making hand over fist right?  Yea...but it could be more.  Ultima Online (EA's MMO) made the guiness book of world records for most subscriptions for an online game in the year 2000 at 200k subscribers.  Ever Quest (Sony's MMO) topped out a few years later at around 1,000,000 subscribers.

 

In an early development interview, one of the WOW developers was quoted as saying they studied the existing MMORPGs and found that many gamers that tried out MMORPGs quit because they took too long to get things done, had too many dependencies on other people to get stuff done, and had too steep of a learning curve on how to be successful at the game.  Blizzard's express intent during the development of WOW was to MINIMIZE those features of MMORPGs that turned off the "every day gamer".  They understood that if they could tap the LARGEST subsection of gamers (Casual Gamers) with the industries most lucrative pricing model (Box Sale + Reoccuring Fee), it would be a HUGE financial success.

 

Look up the Blue Oceans / Red Seas marketing theory.  Blizzard made their own new audience (Casual MMORPG gamers) in a competitive market w/ low margins.

The problem now with this in 2012 is, we have a saturated "every gamer" market.

So where do we go from here?

We already have the soccer moms, the dads and children, nerds, jocks, cleaning women and CEOs playing MMOs, whats left?

As a business the MMO industry is topped out, nobody is going to steal WoWs playerbase with another WoW, because WoW already is a pretty good WoW.

Unless you tap into the Facebook market, you are only going to fight over scraps.

Take SWTOR, if their 1.7M subscribers are correct, then they gained in players what WoW lost from their nearly 12M. The total subscriptions of MMOs have peaked out at around 22M players, of which WoW holds around 45-50%.

Scraps.

PS:

Conclusion, in case it was not obviously clear from my post:

The only way we can break away from themepark MMOs is after WoW falls. Only then the void can be filled by other diverse MMOs and we will have a diverse market again.

WoW is exerting so much gravity that everything will just forever orbit it as long as it exists.

Unless like I said you get Facebook to play MMOs, but i honestly don't know how you could possibly make the games even easier and more accessible past literally inventing a slot-machine MMO, or a Poker mmo.

Originally posted by Zekiah

 

We have nobody to blame but ourselves, we're the ones throwing money at this continual stream of garbage. A strike or boycott would work but I think there's just way too many junkies out there jonesing for their next fix and are willing to pay for junk-cut product.

Maybe we need some kind of intervention or something. 

One man's trash is another's treasury. You can blame yourself all you want.

I am happily paying and playing the MMOs I am having fun with. There are lots of good games in the MMO genre. If you do not like it, don't play .. it is that simple.

Blaming yourself for stuff? that is just silly. Do you blame yourself because you pay to see Star War's Ep 1??? I don't. It is not that great but it is a 2 hrs decent ride. Take it as what it is ... entertainment.