Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Ultimately you have to ask yourself, how does the game play? Sandbox is more than just open world. It needs to have the game play as that.

• That's what makes EQ (1) a Themepark, because the game play directed the player through it via the levels and their needs.
• That's why UO (the original version) was a Sandbox despite grindy skill development and zoned-to-skill dungeon levels.
• And that's what makes Skyrim the SPG a Sandbox but a Themepark if transformed to a MMO as is. And this is the crux of it all. It's not only the mechanics, it's how the game plays.

But there's yet more to it. If you were to take Skyrim and make it an MMO, and instead of instancing it to levels you do what Rift and some others are doing by scaling the content to those around, you lose some Sandbox in that. Sandbox is also consistency. It's not "one world" if the content is being scaled, changed to fit circumstances.

 

I and a very few others have giving explanations and answers for all this many times, but it's just not sinking in. I don't think it ever will to a saturation point that we'll ever see a true Sandbox game. Hell, Richard Garriott, Raph Koster, Richard Bartle, and others has been shunned by the industry, what more can anyone say?

The game plays like a themepark though.  Everywhere I go: developer-made rides for me to ride.

In a sandbox the developer takes the day off and requires me to create my own fun, as in Minecraft or EVE.  Most gamers prefer games like Skyrim or Terraria, where there's gameplay and content.

Open world traversal definitely isn't the primary identifier of a sandbox.  Sand is.  It's a world for you to manipulate.

You don't manipulate Skyrim.

Skyrim plays like a Themepark? Well, yes if you want to by following the quests. But you don't have to, and that's why it plays like a Sandbox...if you want to.

But you have a good point about manipulation. I don't think that's absolutely required though, as I explained. You do have some in Skyrim, with the puzzles and levers and drawbridges and such. But I think a truly great Sandbox would have a lot more, of course.

I've never seen Bethesda's games as sandboxes. ...maybe Daggerfall, but since Morrowind they have felt just like regular RPGs with huge open areas. Take that away and they're like Baldur's Gate or any other Bioware game (just with worse story, characters and VO).

Mount & Blade. Now that is a sandbox RPG. There's no point, no main plot (not really) just a space with things in it and you in the middle of it.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Skyrim plays like a Themepark? Well, yes if you want to by following the quests. But you don't have to, and that's why it plays like a Sandbox...if you want to.

But you have a good point about manipulation. I don't think that's absolutely required though, as I explained. You do have some in Skyrim, with the puzzles and levers and drawbridges and such. But I think a truly great Sandbox would have a lot more, of course. 

The main point of sandboxes is user-authored content.  Otherwise WOW's multiple zones at each level would be considered sandbox gameplay due to it being somewhat open world-like.

The entire point of calling themeparks themeparks is they're a collection of rides, like Skyrim's dungeons, towns, etc.

The entire point of calling sandboxes sandboxes is you make your own ride, like...well like nothing in Skyrim except the tiny bit of customization you get for your home.  But EQ2 has more customization than that and it's nowhere near a sandbox.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Skyrim plays like a Themepark? Well, yes if you want to by following the quests. But you don't have to, and that's why it plays like a Sandbox...if you want to.

But you have a good point about manipulation. I don't think that's absolutely required though, as I explained. You do have some in Skyrim, with the puzzles and levers and drawbridges and such. But I think a truly great Sandbox would have a lot more, of course. 

The main point of sandboxes is user-authored content.  Otherwise WOW's multiple zones at each level would be considered sandbox gameplay due to it being somewhat open world-like.

The entire point of calling themeparks themeparks is they're a collection of rides, like Skyrim's dungeons, towns, etc.

The entire point of calling sandboxes sandboxes is you make your own ride, like...well like nothing in Skyrim except the tiny bit of customization you get for your home.  But EQ2 has more customization than that and it's nowhere near a sandbox.

No, that's not right at all.

Sandbox does not mean user authored content. It means freedom to use the content as you choose.

Themepark is not because it's a collection of rides, it's because those rides are lined up from one end of the park to the other end. That's an important element from the original meaning that you're leaving out. "Themepark" was just a term coined loosely. Heck, part of the original meaning was also because in EQ players had to wait at some of the more important "rides" for their turn while those ahead of them went first.

What, you think Sandbox games aren't supposed to have dungeons and anything like that? In Sandbox games, you choose what you are going to do and when. It's not layed out for you in an order with paint lines on where to stand.

Edit to add: On user authored content, that's something that's much more practical to do in a Sandbox game, and that's always been part of why we like the concept much better. Within reason, of course.

On Themepark and it's meaning, have you ever seen a map of a RL Themepark? The rides are numbered and follow a trail through the park. No, people do not have to follow that ordered number, but the term was loosely applied. "Like a Themepark", and it was the original meaning. But meaning of words is something some of you have always wanted to muddle up. You don't care what we are trying to say, you care about muddling up what we are saying.

Me like themeparks.

I really dont get why people make their own opinion a religion, or why the hell people chase obviously bad ideas so passionately.

In case of sandbox/themepark, its not even that. Its just a question of taste. Most people prefer a finished movie to a set of tools to create a movie by yourself. So yeah, themeparks are more popular.

And Bethesda wont do a MMO because 1. they dont want to 2. the vision of someone doing a MMO with the TES ruleset is quite frankly stuff of nightmares. TES is basically a rulesystem with no consideration at all for balance, or control. Also no depth. As a trivial example, you can make a level 1 character with 100 evocation - just dont choose it as a main skill. Or: you can max all skills and stats and be a Warrior/Rogue/Cleric/Mage - and be as good as any specialist in all tasks.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Being developed by Interplay and Masthead eh? Thats a little disappointing.

WTF I thought Interplay went bankrupt many years ago ... they are called Obsidian Entertainment, now ?!?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

They also fail because they cannot raise enough money to polish their game. There is so much entertainment out there that it is very difficult to compete if a game is short on even ONE aspect.

I won't play a game with ugly graphics, or one that slim on gameplay features. There is just no point. There are so many games out there with great graphics and fun gameplay.

EVE for example is polished enough, obviously.

Also, name one, only one, MMO that actually was polished at release ...

Originally posted by Axehilt

In a sandbox the developer takes the day off and requires me to create my own fun, as in Minecraft or EVE. [...]

The last thing a sandbox developer can do is "take the day off". Making a game where the players can make the game is MORE not less work than a themepark.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

No, that's not right at all.

Sandbox does not mean user authored content. It means freedom to use the content as you choose.

Themepark is not because it's a collection of rides, it's because those rides are lined up from one end of the park to the other end. That's an important element from the original meaning that you're leaving out. "Themepark" was just a term coined loosely. Heck, part of the original meaning was also because in EQ players had to wait at some of the more important "rides" for their turn while those ahead of them went first.

What, you think Sandbox games aren't supposed to have dungeons and anything like that? In Sandbox games, you choose what you are going to do and when. It's not layed out for you in an order with paint lines on where to stand.

Edit to add: On user authored content, that's something that's much more practical to do in a Sandbox game, and that's always been part of why we like the concept much better. Within reason, of course.

On Themepark and it's meaning, have you ever seen a map of a RL Themepark? The rides are numbered and follow a trail through the park. No, people do not have to follow that ordered number, but the term was loosely applied. "Like a Themepark", and it was the original meaning. But meaning of words is something some of you have always wanted to muddle up. You don't care what we are trying to say, you care about muddling up what we are saying.

No, the root reason people created and use these terms is because themeparks have rides (dev-authored) and sandboxes have "sand" (highly player-manipulatable; player-authorship, in other words.)

Just because many themeparks can be linear, doesn't mean linearity is an automatic trait of themeparks.  In real themeparks, the numbers of the map are irrelevant -- there are no rules forcing you to do things in order and nobody actually follows those numbers (they're purely for map useability, and not even meant as a suggested route.)

If you dislike linearity, that's understandable, but it doesn't affect whether a game is a themepark at all.

Sandbox games can have dungeons, but unless those dungeons are player-made, they're a pre-made "ride" for players.  A themepark element in a sandbox game.

Originally posted by Adamantine 

Originally posted by Axehilt

In a sandbox the developer takes the day off and requires me to create my own fun, as in Minecraft or EVE. [...]

The last thing a sandbox developer can do is "take the day off". Making a game where the players can make the game is MORE not less work than a themepark. 

In a themepark you create an endless content grind for your developers.

In a sandbox you just make some polished tools, release the game, and let the players do the work grinding out content.

Originally posted by Adamantine

Originally posted by nariusseldon

They also fail because they cannot raise enough money to polish their game. There is so much entertainment out there that it is very difficult to compete if a game is short on even ONE aspect.

I won't play a game with ugly graphics, or one that slim on gameplay features. There is just no point. There are so many games out there with great graphics and fun gameplay.

EVE for example is polished enough, obviously.

Also, name one, only one, MMO that actually was polished at release ...

GW1, FFXI (or so I hear), Aion, Rift...?

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Adamantine

Originally posted by nariusseldon

They also fail because they cannot raise enough money to polish their game. There is so much entertainment out there that it is very difficult to compete if a game is short on even ONE aspect.

I won't play a game with ugly graphics, or one that slim on gameplay features. There is just no point. There are so many games out there with great graphics and fun gameplay.

EVE for example is polished enough, obviously.

Also, name one, only one, MMO that actually was polished at release ...

GW1, FFXI (or so I hear), Aion, Rift...?

Agreed GW1 and Rift, IMO.

OP to answer your question a big part of the problem is sites that we use to filter out the mass of crap being released fail to do their "job" in giving honest reviews.  If the "professional" reviewers actually called developers out the amount of themepark crap being released would drop drastically and quite possibly spring more sandbox MMO's.

So until the "ZOMG !!!! this themepark is the greatest thing" reviews go away we are stuck with the status quo.

Originally posted by Adamantine

Me like themeparks.

 

I really dont get why people make their own opinion a religion, or why the hell people chase obviously bad ideas so passionately.

In case of sandbox/themepark, its not even that. Its just a question of taste. Most people prefer a finished movie to a set of tools to create a movie by yourself. So yeah, themeparks are more popular.

  

Originally posted by Axehilt

In a sandbox the developer takes the day off and requires me to create my own fun, as in Minecraft or EVE. [...]

The last thing a sandbox developer can do is "take the day off". Making a game where the players can make the game is MORE not less work than a themepark.

 

I agree that there are a lot of folks who just want to put the blinders on and be entertained.....but there are also ALOT of people out there that take a more proactive / interactive approach to entertainment.  GAMERS, by definition, are people who like to take a bit more ownership if their entertainment content.  Puzzles, Legos, Lincoln Logs......Monopoly, Life (the board game), Battleship......Pen & Paper D&D, MUDs, RPGs, MMORPGs.....the list goes on of examples of people that looked for a form of entertainment that THEY could control.

In business school (specifically marketing classes) all they talk about is user generated content.  People like to take ownership if thier stuff.  There are varying degrees of ownership (Themepark gaming vs Sandbox), but make no mistake...the market is out there.

Secondly....sandbox game development (in theory) seems to be less involved in the content creation than Themepark development.  I'm not saying that sandbox development is EASIER....I'm just saying that it probably doesn't require your software to be in a constant development life cycle like themepark development is.

In most themepark games, where the majority of the content is developer generated (quest lines, scripted progression based dungeon crawls), the ONLY thing to really do in the game is to interact with all the content the developers create.  The more dedicated group of players will chew through the content in less than 2-3 months.  If the developers don't release new quests & dungeons, players will get board and quit.  SO......they are constantly churning out new zones, new dungeons, new quests, new weapons & armor to grind for.  As soon as they release a big update, they are moving right on to the next.  Your developers are working around the clock....365 days a year to keep up with the demand.

In most sandbox games, where the majority of the content is player driven (territory wars, siege systems, personal assets like player housing & guild cities), there are many options for players to persue their own goals.  You can choose to be one of the best crafters & corner the market, an adventurer / explorer and try to collect rare items to display in your home, a political force and work to gain power among the players.....the options are only litmited to the ingame tools and rulesets.  You don't have EVERY single player all funneld into the same carrier path.....gear grinding adventurers.  People move through the endgame at a slower pace.  The developers can work to develop a set of ingame tools (like siege systems, territory war system) and then sit back for a while and watch the players interact with the tool sets. 

One castle siege, on a Friday night, will be a completely different castle siege the following weekend.  All the human elements make the experience dynamic and different.  Where a 5 man dungeon run will be the same scripted scenario.....a territory war with a rivaling clan (or alliance) will be different every time.  While the sandbox developers will need to be more "reactive" (in the event the players abuse a tool set in a way that wasn't intended), they DO NOT need to be constantly working on developing & coding.

It will be interesting when The Secret World comes out. I honestly thnk the answer is a hybrid Theme Park/Sandbox. No one has figured this out yet. I can;t think of any real hybrids out there right now.

• Theme Park enough masses to enjoy and to keep players on task..
• Yet sanbox enough for us who like the freedom.

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Another aspect is that its dangorus to put the player base in control of the World.. It creates to many variables that can go wrong from a developers point of view. They are much more comfortable doing something they can control 100%, and In a Themepark setting they hold all the Cards..

I dont think we will ever see anny A+ sandbox that lets its players have the control of what they do.. Its just to RISKY..

Plus no fun.

If a player figure out how to control the environment and grief other people, he turns into a problem very fast.

Letting players control things is not necessarily conducive to fun.

No fun?  Says who?

 

The Knights of Glory & Beer, hailing from the UO Pacific server, would disagree with you.  They were founded as an anti-PK guild that would roam around looking for Player Killers to Kill.  THEY found something fun about exacting player justice on the people who get their jollies off either being, or role playing, the bad guy....the a-hole that abuses the liberties given to players.  You see, the openess of many sandboxes don't ONLY allow for players to grief others....they allow for players to address the grievance too.

 

Some of you people sell short the will and ingenuity of people that have the freedom to solve their own problems.

 

The ONLY recourse of getting griefed isn't to quit the game.  THIS is how guilds are formed.  THIS is how bonds are made between gamers with common goals from opposite ends of the earth. 

 

Letting developers control *all*  things is not neccessarily condusive to fun.

No fun for me.

Will never play a world, forced PvP game.

Originally posted by donjn

It will be interesting when The Secret World comes out. I honestly thnk the answer is a hybrid Theme Park/Sandbox. No one has figured this out yet. I can;t think of any real hybrids out there right now.

• Theme Park enough masses to enjoy and to keep players on task..
• Yet sanbox enough for us who like the freedom.

Freedom is relative.

Think about WOW. You have the freedom to roam any zones you can survive. You have the freedom to use a wide range of content (at leveling, you have choices of what quest to do, or level by dungeoning .. at the end game, you can progerss by 5-man dungeon, LFR, raids, PVP ... and there are side content like professions, pet/mount collecting, achievement ...).

You also have the freedom of engage in pvp or not. You have the freedom of solo, mob grinding, questing, 5-man dungeon, raid, BG, arena, ......

Is WOW a sandbox then?

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Amaranthar

No, that's not right at all.

Sandbox does not mean user authored content. It means freedom to use the content as you choose.

Themepark is not because it's a collection of rides, it's because those rides are lined up from one end of the park to the other end. That's an important element from the original meaning that you're leaving out. "Themepark" was just a term coined loosely. Heck, part of the original meaning was also because in EQ players had to wait at some of the more important "rides" for their turn while those ahead of them went first.

What, you think Sandbox games aren't supposed to have dungeons and anything like that? In Sandbox games, you choose what you are going to do and when. It's not layed out for you in an order with paint lines on where to stand.

Edit to add: On user authored content, that's something that's much more practical to do in a Sandbox game, and that's always been part of why we like the concept much better. Within reason, of course.

On Themepark and it's meaning, have you ever seen a map of a RL Themepark? The rides are numbered and follow a trail through the park. No, people do not have to follow that ordered number, but the term was loosely applied. "Like a Themepark", and it was the original meaning. But meaning of words is something some of you have always wanted to muddle up. You don't care what we are trying to say, you care about muddling up what we are saying.

No, the root reason people created and use these terms is because themeparks have rides (dev-authored) and sandboxes have "sand" (highly player-manipulatable; player-authorship, in other words.)

Just because many themeparks can be linear, doesn't mean linearity is an automatic trait of themeparks.  In real themeparks, the numbers of the map are irrelevant -- there are no rules forcing you to do things in order and nobody actually follows those numbers (they're purely for map useability, and not even meant as a suggested route.)

If you dislike linearity, that's understandable, but it doesn't affect whether a game is a themepark at all.

Sandbox games can have dungeons, but unless those dungeons are player-made, they're a pre-made "ride" for players.  A themepark element in a sandbox game.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Adamantine 

Originally posted by Axehilt

In a sandbox the developer takes the day off and requires me to create my own fun, as in Minecraft or EVE. [...]

The last thing a sandbox developer can do is "take the day off". Making a game where the players can make the game is MORE not less work than a themepark. 

In a themepark you create an endless content grind for your developers.

In a sandbox you just make some polished tools, release the game, and let the players do the work grinding out content.

Wow, just wow.

......or maybe I should say: "WoW, just WoW (and it's clones)".

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by donjn

It will be interesting when The Secret World comes out. I honestly thnk the answer is a hybrid Theme Park/Sandbox. No one has figured this out yet. I can;t think of any real hybrids out there right now.

• Theme Park enough masses to enjoy and to keep players on task..
• Yet sanbox enough for us who like the freedom.

Freedom is relative.

Think about WOW. You have the freedom to roam any zones you can survive. You have the freedom to use a wide range of content (at leveling, you have choices of what quest to do, or level by dungeoning .. at the end game, you can progerss by 5-man dungeon, LFR, raids, PVP ... and there are side content like professions, pet/mount collecting, achievement ...).

You also have the freedom of engage in pvp or not. You have the freedom of solo, mob grinding, questing, 5-man dungeon, raid, BG, arena, ......

Is WOW a sandbox then?

 

All within the strict confines of WoW's level grind and zoned content.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by donjn

It will be interesting when The Secret World comes out. I honestly thnk the answer is a hybrid Theme Park/Sandbox. No one has figured this out yet. I can;t think of any real hybrids out there right now.

• Theme Park enough masses to enjoy and to keep players on task..
• Yet sanbox enough for us who like the freedom.

Freedom is relative.

Think about WOW. You have the freedom to roam any zones you can survive. You have the freedom to use a wide range of content (at leveling, you have choices of what quest to do, or level by dungeoning .. at the end game, you can progerss by 5-man dungeon, LFR, raids, PVP ... and there are side content like professions, pet/mount collecting, achievement ...).

You also have the freedom of engage in pvp or not. You have the freedom of solo, mob grinding, questing, 5-man dungeon, raid, BG, arena, ......

Is WOW a sandbox then?

 

And all roads lead to being a combatant.  As a combatant, your defined by the gear you wear. 

For PvE...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run 5 man dungeons until you have best available gear.

Once you have best available from 5 man dungeons, you qualify for raids.  You then run Raids until you have best available gear.

For PvP...

To get the gear you need, you MUST run random BGs until you have the most available resilience gear.

Once you have most available resilience gear, you stand a chance at running Arenas or Rated BGs until you have best available resilience gear. 

The other things you mentioned, like professions, mount collecting, achievements, are side parlor distractions & gold sinks.  A Blacksmith in World of Warcraft is NOT the same as a Blacksmith in Ultima Online, or a crafter in Star Wars Galaxies.  Flying around, looking for a rare dragon that spawns once very few days for a mount is not the same as being able to role play a Pirate in Arch Age.

You're correct in freedom is relative.....but WOW is most certianly not a sandbox.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Wow, just wow.

These are pretty well-known and self-evident traits and definitions of sandboxes vs. themeparks.  What's so "wow" about it?

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Wow, just wow.

These are pretty well-known and self-evident traits and definitions of sandboxes vs. themeparks.  What's so "wow" about it?

There seems to be a lot of wrangling over the small details of the definitions (mostly symantics)....but the two MMO philosophys are very different and clear to see by anyone that is objective enough to give a fair evaluation.

With that said, I agree with your opinion on how the different development models effect the workload of the developer.

In theory, Sandbox developers are only charged with creating an open world (which requires MUCH less planning logistics since you aren't trying to steer players into specific areas), and creating some basic tools or systems that the players use to create their own content.  Players beat the tool up.....use it, try to exploit it....and developer makes some tweaks when behavior or tools start acting in a way that wasn't intended.

Themepark developers are charged with creating a more guided progression through a world that requires some careful planning to ensure that players are in the right zones at the right times (Several factors to consider are how much XP is to be had in any given area, what gear or power ups are available in any given area, etc.)  The Quests are designed to guide a player through a particluar zone or dungeon.  Dungeon encounters are designed and controled in a way that has *just* the right amount of difficulty for a group to progress.  Players chew up the content and stand waiting for more.  Developers are back on the horse immediately after releasing a content update so that players aren't left waiting too long before they have more quests & dungeons to run.

While sandbox development may be more difficult, being as you are having to take a more reactionary approach to development to account for the unpredictability of how players will interact with the tool.  Themepark development seems to be a MUCH bigger & expensive effort to make sure that everything is coordinated just so that players are doing the right things at the right times.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by donjn

It will be interesting when The Secret World comes out. I honestly thnk the answer is a hybrid Theme Park/Sandbox. No one has figured this out yet. I can;t think of any real hybrids out there right now.

• Theme Park enough masses to enjoy and to keep players on task..
• Yet sanbox enough for us who like the freedom.

Freedom is relative.

Think about WOW. You have the freedom to roam any zones you can survive. You have the freedom to use a wide range of content (at leveling, you have choices of what quest to do, or level by dungeoning .. at the end game, you can progerss by 5-man dungeon, LFR, raids, PVP ... and there are side content like professions, pet/mount collecting, achievement ...).

You also have the freedom of engage in pvp or not. You have the freedom of solo, mob grinding, questing, 5-man dungeon, raid, BG, arena, ......

Is WOW a sandbox then?

 

All within the strict confines of WoW's level grind and zoned content.

Same for all games. Freedom with the confine of the game's mechanics, zones and content.

I'm sorry, but your title implies that themeparks are a problem to be solved, rather than just another play style that doesn't meet your approval.  I rather like themeparks and really find your attitude arrogant and just plain rude.  I also happen to like sandboxes, if to a lesser extent, but you hardcore sandbox purists embarrass me.